and retractable landing gear. Piper Comanche Manuals - PA-24, PA-30, PA-39 | Comanche Data Project Bungee replacement - Comanche Landing Gear - Comanche Tech Talk In the late 1950s through the 1960s, while the Big Three automakers were busy competing with higher-performance cars to sell to public, the Big Three of general aviation were dreaming up faster and more powerful planes to dominate the skies. Start your free trial today! According to some sources, Piper Comanches are absolutely loved by their owners, who try to hang on to them long after they are too old and should have been sold. The result is essentially a Comanche 250 with a low gross weight. Sold out. If youre shopping the used four-place retrac market no doubt youll consider a Comanche. Since none of us are pilots, and this seemed like a fun thing to do, we figured why the hell not? This airplane is certified in the normal category. According to owners, this group is an excellent organisation for Comanche owners. $950.00. The ICS also offers a technical support service when you and your mechanic need someone to talk to. Twelve pilots simply forgot to extend the Firestones before ground contact. Bogert Aviation PA-24/30 Bungee Cord Removal Tool The original airplane had a 60-gallon fuel system. Piper designed and built the aircraft from 1956 until 1972, when the manufacturing plant was wiped out by a massive flood and production ceased. The march of technology is slow in general aviation (a new $750,000 Bonanza has 300 HP and cruises around 170 knots), so youre not giving up all that much performance by getting something old, just a bit of refinement. TBB, MGH. Light turbulence settles quickly and causes no noticeable lateral motions, plus the flat attitude gives a good forward field of view, and even a decent view of the ground in front of the wing. A turbonormalized version of the Comanche C was offered alongside the normally aspirated model in 1970. Ive found that landing gear bungees generally need replacement at every annual inspection. Ive seen some IAs do the six-cylinder engine conversion and sign it off with a logbook entry. I'd like to offer, based on recent experience, that a cause of circuit breaker popping can also be due to the DC electric motor stalling. The Comanche 250 was its big brother. But unless you buy one thats been particularly well-restored and cared for, getting an old Comanche up to snuff can be a pricey proposition. It should be noted that there is also a PA-30 Twin Comanche, which is a twin-engined aircraft. Malfunctioning landing gear contributes to accident Its 250-hp Lycoming O-540 engine gave this airplane a 20-kt advantage over the 180, and yet the 250's average-equipped price was only $4,000 more. Their excellent build quality with total corrosion proofing before assembly and compound curve panels meant that the underlying cost structure was greater than emerging designs from either Piper or its competitors. Forcing the aircraft on to the ground may be tempting, but it causes even more problems, and it is important to make sure you are at the correct attitude and airspeed as soon as you land. The number of available aftermarket mods for the plane is extensive; some are overpriced and pointless in my view, while othersare fairly cheap and offer great results. Cabin and cowling door repairs are often neglected, so be sure to inspect them for shoddy repairs and improper cabin door seals. Get extra lift from AOPA. In 1972, there were two single-engine Comanche models still in production-the 260 and turbo 260. The landing gear mods from Laminar Flow Systems include nose gear and main gear pants for Piper fixed gear models, wheel well fairings (similar to Knots2U gear lobe fairing) for Piper retractable gear models, and mounting hardware for fixed gear pant kits. Aeroshell #64 contains 5% Molybdenum Disulfide, an extreme-pressure additive. Ive owned my 1961 PA24-250 N7754P for six years, and the airframe has 2200 hours total and the engine has 980 hours since factory reman. The ICS does not have one in their tool loan program. Check a copy of the Comanche Flyer magazine or the ICS website www.comancheflyers.com for examples. Beechcraft was the first out of the gate, originally selling the 180 horsepower Bonanza in 1947. Electrical power for the aircraft is supplied by a 12-volt, direct current system. Itll burn 8 to 10 GPH and cruise at 140 knots. Quad Ring, For Complete Kit Order O-RIng Seal Kit Part # TPMS-1. Lower to the ground this time, flare a little too nose high, slightly overcorrect, hit the nose and mains simultaneously with a bit of a bounce. This is as close to new as you can get, maybe even better. Usually the sloppy bushings make collapse more likely, not binding. The Comanche 180 can climb at 700 to 900 FPM after using more than 2200 feet to clear a 50-foot obstacle. This website contains many older reviews. The motor can be pulled, disassembled, cleaned, reassembled, and tested with not too much hassle in a day by an AME. You even get enough airflow through the circular cabin vents to finally cool off. Since the Piper Comanche is an old aircraft anyway, it is likely to keep its value, so long as it is well maintained by its owner. Speaking of ICS, owners tell us the group is an exceptionally good resource for Comanche owners. But the resulting aircraft would be essentially a Comanche 250 with a low gross weight, which might be very useful in some circumstances. We consider qualified pilots to have at least a private license, IFR rating with 300 total hours, 25 retractable gear and 10 hours in the make/model. On the plus side, they can be well maintained at lower cost than many other aircraft due to the now widespread use of generic parts. We may earn a commission from links on this page. Speaking of ICS, owners tell us the group is an exceptionally good resource for Comanche owners. If not, the selling price should be adjusted to reflect a cost of $1500 per bladder. With a Comanche expert doing the maintenance, these systems have been trouble-free for me, but not cheap. Moreover, the aircraft are relatively complex-certainly when compared to, for example, a Cessna 182-so dont assume it will be as cheap to maintain. PA-30 Twin Comanche ADs | Piper Owner Society For those willing to handle the maintenance and invest in avionics upgrades, the result can be an exemplary classic airplane. Not a rocket by any means, but not bad for the conditions. Website. Wag-Aero Wag-Aero: Piper Aircraft Parts Electric flaps replaced the manual ones in 1962 models. Pilots do sometimes complain about the difficulty of landing a Comanche anyway. The result was that this quickly became the far more popular Comanche model, and by the end of production some 250 Comanche 250s had been sold. No novels please, just let me know how I can help. Not bad, especially considering the hot day and the condition of my test bird, rented and kept outside for the past 15 years or more. The airplane is approved for day and night VFR/IFR operations when equipped in accordance with F.A.R. Someone else might be having similar questions. The original ball screws would have survived longer with regular use of this grease; ball screws are a common failure. There were 17 accidents involving pilots either running completely out of fuel or running a tank dry and not then selecting a tank containing fuel and getting a restart in the time remaining in flight. Piper PA 24-250 Rt main Gear side brace support PN 20760-01. This dukes-type Piper Comanche landing transmission basic assembly P/N 25720-003 as shown below is $3,850 exchange, plus shipping and insurance. 17031 ICS member Posts: 38 Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:44 pm Top Re: Maintenance Costs by Mark Anderson Wed May 04, 2011 3:50 am I flew my plane 200 hours last year and my annual cost $8,000.00 or $40.00 an hour. This is likely to be fairly typical, but pilots would be advised to shop around, particularly if they are low-time or have other issues making insurance more difficult than average. As one of Piper's first all-metal, ultra-aerodynamic airplanes furnished with a comfortable interior, it helped differentiate the company from its early style of slower tube-and-fabric aircraft. PA-24 Comanche aircrafts pdf manual download. The old boys that I learned to fly with would say that if you can shut the door on whatever you got into a Comanche, it would fly away without a problem. Helen is an expert in all things aviation! Im sure theres a way to get it right, but theres a reason many owners pump up the main struts or install a smaller nosewheel to get a flatter attitude on the ground. These two models remained in production until 1964. However, one expert source quotes a retail price for the Comanche 250 the most popular and most common model of between $37,000 and $46,000. The mods that can offer the most speed include relocating the brakes to the inside of the gear forks, gap seals, wheel well slippers and wingroot fairings, both front and rear. Basic annual inspections are done at a full-service FBO and run about $1400 when owner assisted. Subsequent Comanche models both single- and twin-engine were built until 1972. Many owners have reported cruise of 155 knots true, and around 13 gallons per hour of fuel burn, which seems believable. Piper PA24-250 nose gear landing fork PN 20790-00. The Comanche line debuted in 1958, with the Comanche 180 and 250 models. I say to do this in the air because even though you can monitor the ammeter on jacks the air loads are significant and will cause higher current draws. As expected, climb diminished with altitude, giving 870 FPM at 3,000 feet, and 790 FPM at 4,000. After years of distance-traveling in my airplane (to places I never would have visited if it werent for my Comanche), I believe a full-featured autopilot is perhaps the most useful avionics system you can buy. Overall, Comanches take careful handling and will not tolerate sloppy flying. This list of Piper Comanche ADs is provided as a service and is copied directly from the FAA website. Compare this to an exchange Dukes transmission if you can find one [I may have them available], which may not have any new components. More Piper Comanche questions! | Page 5 | Pilots of America However, the empty weight is also higher, by 337 pounds. The landing gear on the Comanche gets our attention. Spend some time reading; if you are still stumped then give me a call. Or humans. Beechcraft, Cessna, and Piper had each been enjoying successes since the end of World War II, but the demand for faster personal aircraft and availability of cheap leaded fuel in the ensuing decades drove each of them to develop four-seat airplanes with larger engines and retractable landing gear. Either way, a realistic budget should be around $100,000. With a 1,600 FPM rate of climb and cruise speed over 210 mph, the massive engine gave good performance, but was also the airplanes biggest flaw. In 1961, Piper offered an optional 90-gallon system, which gave the Comanche 180 seriously long legs: nine hours, provided it was only loaded with the pilot, one passenger and a little baggage. Strictly Necessary Cookie should be enabled at all times so that we can save your preferences for cookie settings. Both of these aircraft are single-engined retractables, and both are very popular. For comparison, an American. It went up in January when the panel upgrade was completed. The PA-24-250 Comanche was Pipers shot at the high performance, retractable (landing gear), piston single (single piston engine) market. The Comanche 250 has nice handling characteristics and is very easy to fly. Answer: it really comes down to personal preference. Piper PA24-250 Left maing gear side brace fitting PN 20760-00. This bake prevents the jack screw from turning while the gear is up in cruise. The airplane has a large nosewheel (actually, it's the same size as the main gear) and, together with the main gears' stubby struts, the landing-gear geometry lends itself to nosewheel-first arrivals, premature liftoffs, and wheelbarrowing. But also due to the way they are wound they will simply pull more amps and carry on at a constant speed under increased load - until they get a load they cannot carry any more. We did not find evidence that the Comanche has peculiar landing characteristics-there were only six hard landing events, well below what we would expect for an airplane that is truly difficult to land. First, weve worked on enough Comanches to say that the airplane is perhaps one of the best built all-metal singles of its time. Its sturdy, which it makes it a good instrument airplane, plus its easy to fly in busy traffic patterns since its comfortably flown slow or fast. * Please DO NOT ship any items to be serviced to any of his addresses. It is pulled back by a solenoid when the gear is in transition and held in place by a spring when the landing gear motor is off. PA-28-140 Piper Cherokee 140 & Cruiser ADs, https://www.facebook.com/PiperOwnerSociety?fref=ts. The good news is that lots of shops can work on them (although as the accident reports show, pick one that knows the model well), parts are available and market prices are steady, yet reasonable. Recurring ADs on any aircraft can run up the cost of operation, and Comanches are no different. There are no up locks in the system. The Pilots Operating Handbook recommends an approach speed of 71 knots, which may mean you need to lower flaps quickly and even do extra turns to slow down for landing, if you have been cruising at the Comanches high normal cruise speed. But one advantage is that it comes with so many modifications and variants that you can almost design your Comanche the way you want it. Strong crosswinds and short field landings are straightforward., I just thought Id write to let you know how much I like my Comanche 400.. Ive taken the course twice. A few pumps of the primer, throttle in slightly, key to start, and the carbureted flat six comes to life with a lightly muffled, big bore growl. Most of the grumbling you hear about Comanches has to do with landings. This website uses cookies. Perhaps for this reason, owners are sometimes less than enthusiastic about Comanche maintenance. https://www.aviationconsumer.com/used-aircraft-guide/piper-comanche-2/, https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/piper-comanche, https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/piper-pa-24-comanche/, https://bwifly.com/piper-comanche-insurance-cost/, Bombardier Challenger 300 Guide and Specs. Piper dropped the 400 after 2 years and, just like Hal and Lois Wilkerson, focused on making improvements to the better balanced middle child of the family. The last two landings I managed to grease the main wheels down, but still got a bit of a bounce on the nose. You can find out more about which cookies we are using or switch them off in settings. Quad Ring, Main Gear Strut, Piper Fixed Gear. If you or your A&P are not familiar with the Comanche landing gear system or just cant figure it out, I am available for consultation with the diagnostics of your landing gear problems call me. It's important to remember that Comanches are slippery. Please put your questions on the forum as well so everyone can read and respond. If you're accustomed to Cessna singles, you'll be sure to notice that speed reductions will take some time and require some advance planning. With a tapered laminar-flow wing, respectable speed (big-engine models make downright impressive numbers), solid handling and lots of available speed mods, the right Comanche could be one of the most desirable vintage piston singles. Visit our. We do not guarantee this is up-to-date. Once in the pilot seat, you notice that nose-up attitude and long cowl restricts your forward field of view somewhat while on the ground. Cowlings are also offered by Aviation Performance. Landing gear CB This Forum is a place for Piper Comanche pilots to communicate and discuss technical issues If you join or reset a password, please check your Spam Email box for emails from Admin at ComancheTechTalk.com Please put your questions on the forum as well so everyone can read and respond. Other similar aircraft are the Cessna 172, and also the Grumman AA-5 series and Beechcraft Musketeer, although none of these are retractables and they are significantly slower. The airframe is essentially identical to the 250, except the 400 uses the Piper Aztec stabilizer. Other than the heat. It also had a spacious and aerodynamic four-seat cabin and a weak 180 HP four-cylinder engine. In flight, the Comanche is smooth, stable and tight, with a climb rate that is impressive and difficult to prevent. For sure, the Comanches list of mods, modifiers and parts resources is long and best accessed from involvement with the ICS and its members and publications. Add power, go around, try again. In 1958 it released the Comanche 250. The list of modifiers and parts resources is long, and best accessed from involvement with the ICS and its members and publications. Airworthiness Directives, Piper Twin Comanche ADs for PA-30 airplanes. Enjoy this 34.7-mile loop trail near Freudenberg, Bavaria. Designed by Elegant Themes | Powered by WordPress, Piper Airplane ADs Airworthiness Directives. Pipers price $536.20. The Comanche market has two price points, really. The Rajay system essentially had a second throttle wastegate control the pilot used to manually set boost at altitude. Also, a different prop AD (AD 97- 18-02) can prove costly for 250/260 owners. As has been already mentioned, when it comes to handling the Comanche is easy to fly, but also slippery and easy to lose control of when on the approach to landing. The 250 and 260 are better performers. Meanwhile, the ultimate in wretched excess, or perfection, depending on your point of view, has to go to the Comanche 400. Not today. It is situated on the river Main and has a population around 3,700. Theres also Knots2U (www.knots2u.net, 262-763-5100) that has, in addition to the wing fillet mod, a dorsal fin kit, speedbrakes and a variety of other mods for Comanches. A brief overview of the Dura landing gear transmission in a Piper Comanche Theres also the Delphi Airworthy Comanche Forum (https://forums.delphiforums.com/Comanches), and we spotted tons of useful threads on all things Comanche-from avionics to lighting to service parts. Amberger Ringweg: 0 Reviews, Map - Bayern, Germany | AllTrails The moral: Make sure you're at the proper airspeed and attitude the moment you touch down. * Please DO NOT email / call with REPEAT questions, they only slow down the response time. For more than five decades, active and dedicated aircraft owners and pilots have turned to AVIATION CONSUMER to answer their most important buying questions. Since its important that the flight controls are properly rigged (while ensuring the landing gear and landing gear doors are retracted fully and fit flush) this should be the first step before any aftermarket mods are installed. According to one owner, The landing gear and stabilator are unique to Comanches, and a knowledgeable mechanic is required. Having the same name for the two types has caused a certain amount of confusion! Leaving the power up in a shallow dive gets you 200 mph quickly, and even pulling the power to idle, you dont want to plan on going down and slowing down simultaneously. While many Comanches sport three-blade propellers, some could have old clamp-style propellers. Most Comanche owners can vouch for them. The 180 came with a carbureted 180-horsepower Lycoming O-360 engine, had a 140-kt cruise speed, and went out the door for $18,000 or so. PA-24 Piper Comanche ADs | Piper Owner Society Someone else might be having similar questions. As for range, even an old 250 model with 60 gallons of fuel will generally go from Western Massachusetts to North Carolina in 3.5 hours with one hour of fuel remaining. Max Take-Off Weight: 1,315 Kg / 2,899 lbs, Fuel Tank Capacity: 90 gallon / 341 liter, Fuselage Diameter: 1.25 metre / 4.10 feet, Wing Span / Rotor Diameter: 11 metre / 36.09 feet, Travel range: 1,064 Nautical Miles / 1,971 Kilometers, Rate of Climb: 1500 feet per minute / 7.62metre per second, Take Off Distance: 430 metre / 1,410.74 feet, Landing Distance: 370 metre / 1,213.90 feet. Added Comanche Flight Training Manual, thanks Chris! The airplane also gained cowl flaps and an aileron-rudder interconnect. We do not guarantee this is up-to-date. An aircraft with a turbocharged engine is likely to cost about $500 more, and some Comanche 250s sell for as much as $74,000. It seems that your either love them or hate them, and many pilots love them enough to hold on to them rather than buy any newer aircraft. Which is why there is a circuit breaker. 2020-06-24. Whatever. What the 180-HP Comanche lacks for cruise speed it certainly makes up for with endurance. Piper Landing Gear - Smith Salvage and Restoration Nose Landing Gear Doors Adjustment. Close to the runway, those laminar-flow wings ride deep in ground effect. The 250 horsepower Piper PA-24-260 Comanche is a four-seat, low wing airplane with retractable landing gear. Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899 PA-39 #10 Texas, by LeWayne Garrison Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:26 pm. Browse through ADs from other models on this page. It is a four cylinder, normally aspirated, direct drive, air cooled, horizontally opposed, carburetor equipped engine. LoPresti did create some interesting and worthwhile aerodynamic mods for the airplane, however. You are also likely to find a number of local and regional clubs and groups, although perhaps not quite so many as for the more popular Piper Cherokee models. View and Download Piper PA-24 Comanche service manual online. The organization also offers a technical support service to help with maintenance when needed. In 1966, the Comanche B, with a fuel-injected 260-HP Lycoming IO-540-D4A5, a boosted gross weight (now 3100 pounds) and two more seats, was added to the lineup, starting with serial number 24-4300. Piper Comanche 250 (main page)Piper Comanche 250 SpecsPiper Comanche 250 ReviewsPiper Comanche 250 ADsPiper Comanche 250 Restoration Series. Products from Knots2U andWebco are respected. Overview 27M-BCT Bogert Aviation PA-24/30 Bungee Cord Removal Tool Comanche Owners30 minutes to change bungees Lower damage risk with the right tool Complete control of bungee shock cords coming off Complete control of bungee shock cords going on E-Z instructions with detailed drawings Safe landings depend on new cords every few years Comanche Landing Ge. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE, PRAYERS & UNDERSTANDING! With the primitive indicating systems associated with many of the airplanes in the field, too often a pilot is faced with the dilemma, Now where did I put that fuel?. Such an expert can be found through the International Comanche Society (ICS), which owners say is an excellent resource for Comanche owners. Join other aviators &get news and updates from the team at Aviator Insider! Plus it is satisfying seeing the commutator go from dirty to bright, and see the dust and grime blast out of the windings using compressed air, and even more satisfying seeing it operate with some authority. If you're too fast, the airplane can float and float while you bleed off airspeed. 2020-06-26. You can check it during a gear swing by placing a bit of opposing force on the manual gear swing handle. Fuel burns of 20-23 gallons per hour scared off many aspiring owners, and like a cheap AMG Mercedes, engine work could easily cost more than the value of the plane itself after a few years. Thomas A. Horne, AOPA Pilot, December 2002. The basic airframe proved successful and wasnt changed much during its production run. A brief description of each type of landing gear mod will be provided below. If you land even a little too fast, the airplane tends to float and float, while the speed slowly bleeds off. Brake Coil Assembly Part Number 24948-000, Dads Muffler Shop, No Muff Too Tough Commercial. The trick-as it is with any older aircraft-is finding a shop or technician experienced in the type. During an instructional flight in the Piper PA 24-250 near Newton, Kansas, the flight instructor reported that while on final approach at their destination airport, the landing gear did not illuminate down and locked. The 180 Comanches load-carrying capacity is ample but modest. There is a good supply of many of these commonly needed items. Add PA-24-180, -250 Aircraft Owner Handbook, 1973 edition of the PA24 Parts Catalog, and 1998 edition of the PA24 Service Manual, thanks Scott! Copyright 2023 Aviator Insider | A Topsail Media Company | Powered by Astra WordPress Theme. Piper PA-24 Comanche - Aviation Consumer Landing gear CB - Comanche Landing Gear - Comanche Tech Talk Forum Since that quote the Dukes company was sold, and the price went into low orbit. I am now 73. SPEC SHEET Hits Economical to operate Sturdy airframe Simple systems I hold commercial, instrument and multi-engine ratings, have 2300 hours total time with 500-plus hours of complex time, plus Ive logged about 200 hours in my Comanche. Walking up to the Comanche 250 today, one of the first things you notice is that it sits low to the ground with a nose-up attitude. I flight plan for 13.5 GPH, but flying from 9500 to 11,500 feet will reduce the fuel flow to around 12 GPH. Capacity of these cells, which are classified as the main fuel cells, is 30 gallons each. The fuel for the Comanche is carried in two rubber-like fuel cells located in the inboard section of the wings. The early panel layout doesnt conform to the later standard T configuration, so it may be unfamiliar to recently trained pilots or those coming from more modern rides. Like a sports car for the skies, it was known for its nimble and satisfying handling, build quality, and propensity to kill pilots that overstepped their (or the airplanes) limits. Parts are primarily through boutique suppliers and rarely a problem to source. The Piper PA-24 Comanche is an old aircraft, but is still popular and much-loved by owners. The all-metal Comanches, with their laminar-flow wings, retractable landing gear, stabilators, and greater interior comfort than any previous Piper, made the aircraft a serious competitor. After installation of your new transmission, ship your exchange but preferably within 2 weeks; I need the motor and release components for refurbishing. Dialling codes. Complete landing gear transmission assembly P/N 25720-000 with overhauled motor $4,700, exchange. Also installed was a new glare- shield and a metal panel. Products (www.aviationperformanceproducts.com), which claims that its Eagle XP cowling increases speed, economy and improves maintenance access. Suggest you resolve before flying again and definitely study the POH emergency gear procedures. Since all Piper Comanches are now second hand, prices can vary immensely depending on age, model, condition, and sometimes just the luck of the draw! Official FAA overhaul language would apply if there was stated criteria, and the agency was FAA approved. There is a 1000 hour inspection required on the landing gear. And who tested it with an insulation tester to determine that? The panel is what one would expect from a circa-1960s airplane, with good space for instruments but early, unrestored models will look dated by modern standards. Apart from the aforementioned ADs, Comanches are unremarkable; most other ADs are minor and/or shotgun directives that apply to many airplanes. However, obtaining parts is rarely a problem anyway, as generic parts can be used in many instances. Gear Bungie Opinion - Comanche Landing Gear - Comanche Tech Talk Ive found that many aircraft are compliant. The best source is Comanchegear.com and owner Matt Kurke. Those owners will eventually spend big money at the avionics shop for new metal panels and modern avionics, including autopilots and engine displays. Aviation Consumer https://www.aviationconsumer.com/used-aircraft-guide/piper-comanche-2/, AOPA https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/piper-comanche, Aerocorner https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/piper-pa-24-comanche/, International Comanche Society https://www.comancheflyers.com, BWI Fly https://bwifly.com/piper-comanche-insurance-cost/.
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